G-Tec chip

[allan]

mitt varvstopp går in vid 110km/h på 2:ans växel....har som mest legat i 250km/h som ni säger, kör då med novitec chip, sportfilter, 3" efter katt, större dump

[Freddan72]

Originally posted by GT28RS

84jr0;
Like Peter explained I had GT28RS, 0.86 earlier and it gave me 340 bhp, 357 bhp and 355 bhp. Torque is up to boost, but in these above mentioned power measurements it has been between 476 Nm(1.6 bar) - 510 Nm(1.8bar).
I did found this 360 bhp to be max with my setup and GT28RS turbo.
Anyway with these ratings I have achieved 12.921s in 1/4 mile run , important! with normal street tires!! .

With GT28RS turbo, the max saved boost rate in my Apexi has been 1.99 bar and always in 1/4 mile I have seen 1.8 bar at finish line. So I can't give any exact boost rates, what is good to use, because it is not only the boost, which will broke the engine.
Detonation is the worst and you can get it already with very low boost rates.

- Jari -

Jari this sounds too good to be true. All this power with stock internals Yihaaaaaa

[84jr0]

Originally posted by Freddan72
Jari this sounds to good to be true. All this power with stock internals Yihaaaaaa

I feel you Freddan, you want to go up to the same level?

I think it's impressing even with GT28RS turbo @ 355hp with stock internals.

Jari > How does the car fell like in low speeds? What's your goal with all these mods, track or strip?

[Freddan72]

Originally posted by 84jr0
I feel you Freddan, you want to go up to the same level?

I think it's impressing even with GT28RS turbo @ 355hp with stock internals.

Jari > How does the car fell like in low speeds? What's your goal with all these mods, track or strip?

I´m happy if I get 280 HP out off my engine

Keep up the good work Jari!

[per]

Remember there are lots of 300+ Coupe-engines with std. internals. Hey after all it's a Fiat!
(Also remember Jens 1301cc Uno T with 350hp..)

[GT28RS]

God morgon

The power with std internals is not the problem, it is the torque.
Our engine is equipped with small diameter pistons and very short stroke. The engine is very easy to rev up to near 8000 rpm with std internals.
Only thing is to have open intake and open exhaust systems for high power. With only 1.2 bar boost in 7000 rpm you have around 350 bhp and the torque is around 400-420 Nm, even OE clutch can handle that.

We have here in Finland three (maybe 4) of Coupes who are measured power above 300 bhp. These two friends of mine have GT28R turbo (312 bhp/ 440 Nm) and the other one has TO4 turbo (378 bhp/ 476 Nm) and all we have std internals.

Now that I have bigger turbo, I need to change internals to get all out of this new one. This new one can hold 2 bar in 6500 - 7000 rpm in 2 litre engine, if there is no restrictive things interrupting the air flow, like head, manifold etc.

I'm aiming over 400 bhp and just for 1/4 mile or top speed runs. This turbo is not so good for track use .

- Jari -

[Freddan72]

When you read on fccuk.org they always mention that you need to change the clutch if you pass the 300 bhp mark. But you say that there is no need for that. Now I don't know what to believe.

I'm thinking about upgrading the TB28. Do you think there is any potential in the original turbo?

[GT28RS]

Yes, so they say in UK , but the power directly is not the reason for clutch change, the torque is. As I said before, if you can get your peak power, let's say 320 bhp, up to 6500 rpm, you can achive it with lower boost than peak power in 5700 rpm. That amount of power can be reach with 1.1 - 1.2 bar boost in high revs, but in 5700 rpm the same power needs 1.4 - 1.5 bar boost and this mean much higher torque. And this torque makes your clutch slipping.
And for sure the more power you will have, the higher boost is needed. You can calculate torque through the power you want to have in specific rpm. And the torque is only achieved by boost.

For example my first high boost run with GT28RS gave me +500 Nm torgue in 4600 rpm and peak power of 335 bhp in 4800 rpm!!
The boost was some 1.8-1.9 bar. But for this same power in 6500 rpm you only need some 1.2 bar boost! And this amount of max boost mean much lower torque level, which the OE clutch can handle.

These boost rates I have explained above can vary alot depending on each others setup. These I have seen with my current setup.

But main point is, that the lower you want your peak power, for example 300 bhp, to achived, the more boost / torque you need to have.

Hopefully my explanation was clear enough to be understood.


The the update of OE turbo TB2810. Yes it can be modified. One of my friend in Karleby has let it done. They machined the compressor housing a little bit bigger and changed the compressor wheel. The theoretical size of the turbo is some 300 bhp. He has measured 299 bhp out of it with detonating engine.
But after 10 000 km of running blue smoke comes out of it, so this is not recommended to do. Slide bearing turbos are not even close to last as long as ball-bearing turbos. So if I were you, buy any GT turbo you want and let the OE turbo be ... It is worth of .
My friend with that GT28R turbo says that it spool even faster than the OE turbo ever did. This same notification can be read from UK Forum.


- Jari -

PS. Anyway I recommend the clutch change always when you want to go over 1.4 bar boost.

[Freddan72]

I see. How much torque can the OE clutch take? 400 Nm?
If I change the compressor wheel does this mean that the turbo can hold a higher boost pressure in the middle of the rev range say 4000 - 5500 rpm? Will it be a little more laggier compared to the OE turbo?

What clutch do you recommend for upgrade? Do I also need to change the pressure plate?

Is this a good kit? See "Sport-Kupplung VALEO-SPORT"
http://www.coupeteile.de/Neuteile.htm
Pic here:
http://www.coupeteile.de/Bilder/Neut...aleo_Sport.JPG

[GT28RS]

Yes, I have noticed myself and also other that OE clutch is capable to handle 380-420 Nm quite good. Little bit depending on the use, but anyway this level is safe with OE clutch. Always need to remember that tuned car will lower the life time of any kind of clutch.
When I started to tune my Coupe, I bought Digitec Chip and K/N replace airfilter +98E fuel. I got 257 bhp / 384 Nm, with this setup I drove about 25000 km and never got any problems with the clutch. Then I changed the turbo in 55000 km, other wise same setup, but boost only 1 bar, I measured 280 bhp and 394 Nm and still no problems with clutch.
After that I got chip, which didn't have boost limit and I started to get higher and higher boost. In some point the clutch started to slip and I had to come down with the boost. Up to the point when the clutch was in so bad condition that it was slipping with 3rd gear and 1 bar boost.
I changed the clutch to Sinter metall clutch and since that no problems at all with over 500 Nm of torque.

There are couple posibilities with the clutch:
1. OE clutch packet, max. torque app. 400 Nm
2. Alfa GTA clutch, which has a little bit stronger cover plate. It can handle torque up to 420-440 Nm. This is still normal organic clutch.
3. Alfa GTA clutch plate and uprated cover plate. It is also quite good up to 440 Nm. It will hold torque longer than simple Alfa GTA clutch.
4. Sintermetall clutches. They are good way over 500 Nm.
5. Twin plate sinter metall clutches. Good over 600 Nm.

So, if you stay in power level 300 - 320 bhp / 400 - 420 Nm the best choice would be second one, Alfa GTA clutch. It is direct replacement clutch to Coupe.

The clutch in your link is same as point 4. Sinter metall clutch is easy to drive, okay in UK some has had plenty of difficulties with them, but it is just learnig thing. For me it is nowadays very difficult to run with normal organic clutches .

- Jari -

[84jr0]

Jari > very good information from you and you have just answered many questions of mine.

Is there necessary to lift out the engine while replacing the clutch?

[GT28RS]

No, you can take the gearbox itself out of the engine bay.
BUT, it is quite hard job. You need to deassemble lot of things before you reach the gearbox .
When I changed my clutch, it took over a day to get all the other things out of the car to get to the gearbox.
Clutch change itself took only 2 hours, gearbox out, cleanig it, clutch change and gearbox in. Rest of the day took to put the things back in their places.

Anyway clutch change can be done by two guys, who have time and place to do it , there is nothing special there.

I have plenty of pictures taken from my clutch change. Actually in the beginning of next year we are going to change the clutch to my friends Coupe (with GT28R). His OE clutch has been running some 150 000 km and still it could handle his around 380 - 400 Nm of torque, but it is slipping and he can't use all what the turbo is capable to produce.

- Jari -

[84jr0]

Originally posted by GT28RS
No, you can take the gearbox itself out of the engine bay.
BUT, it is quite hard job. You need to deassemble lot of things before you reach the gearbox .
When I changed my clutch, it took over a day to get all the other things out of the car to get to the gearbox.
Clutch change itself took only 2 hours, gearbox out, cleanig it, clutch change and gearbox in. Rest of the day took to put the things back in their places.

Anyway clutch change can be done by two guys, who have time and place to do it , there is nothing special there.

I have plenty of pictures taken from my clutch change. Actually in the beginning of next year we are going to change the clutch to my friends Coupe (with GT28R). His OE clutch has been running some 150 000 km and still it could handle his around 380 - 400 Nm of torque, but it is slipping and he can't use all what the turbo is capable to produce.

- Jari -

Good, I heard that you must lift out the engine while changing the clutch but look so wrong I can be. Could you show some of the pics you have taken?

[GT28RS]

Pictures are at home, I will find some and add to my photobucket gallery, or you can give me your email address and I can send more of them to you.

- Jari -

[84jr0]

Originally posted by GT28RS
Pictures are at home, I will find some and add to my photobucket gallery, or you can give me your email address and I can send more of them to you.

- Jari -

I think that I'm not the only one who want to see som pics so I think adding them to your photobucket gallery is the best way if you can do that. Or else you can mail them to almir (at) orle.se